Curse

Selket · Apr 24, 2011, 03:50 PM // 15:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Groth

Because having numbers 1-8 indented in one's forehead is "active play" especially when the actual cast order, usage, auto attack implication and enchants are all free of drawbacks. You're right, who really wants to think about their skills anyway? If its off cooldown why not go ahead and use it right? Hell, its not like anything BAD could happen... i mean... I'm a Dervish. Besides this person is right:

There's a drawback of using stuff wrong. Its called not scoring kills, which is what you'll end up doing if you're hitting the buttons wrong. But that's just how things work with every class. Its just less obvious with Dervishes since their DPS output is slightly higher than warriors. Its certainly more active than pretty much everything else, and its certainly more fun to hear people whining about it, too.

pinkeyflower · Apr 24, 2011, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Selket

There's a drawback of using stuff wrong. Its called not scoring kills, which is what you'll end up doing if you're hitting the buttons wrong. But that's just how things work with every class. Its just less obvious with Dervishes since their DPS output is slightly higher than warriors. Its certainly more active than pretty much everything else, and its certainly more fun to hear people whining about it, too.

That goes with any build except the penalty is much smaller on a dervish and we assume people fit within the normal realms of the human mind not the extremes that are required to consistently mash their buttons incorrectly.

What you just admitted is that you like being a shitter. This is why we can't have good things.

Groth · Apr 24, 2011, 04:13 PM // 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Selket

There's a drawback of using stuff wrong. Its called not scoring kills, which is what you'll end up doing if you're hitting the buttons wrong. But that's just how things work with every class. Its just less obvious with Dervishes since their DPS output is slightly higher than warriors. Its certainly more active than pretty much everything else, and its certainly more fun to hear people whining about it, too.

You are totally right of course. I failed to think like a dervish... when one cannot die from misusing a skill i suppose activating a skill and your foe rudely neglecting to bow at your feet is quite the "drawback"

I have been blind, and you have shown me the light! Its right up your alley.

You should totally sign up:

Skyy High · Apr 24, 2011, 05:04 PM // 17:04

*shrug*

Warriors have been the best melee class in the game since the game released, and no one else has ever really had much of a chance. If dervs are better than wars (of course, no derv can fill a hammer war's role, but ignoring that for a second), so be it; I want some evidence that they're actually OP-ed beyond "they're better than sword/axe now!" Oh no, some other class is actually not laughably bad, kill it with fire!

You can /faceroll adrenaline skills with even less of a drawback than energy skills, if you're so inclined; that doesn't mean that's a good way to play the class.

Tyris Requiem · Apr 24, 2011, 05:11 PM // 17:11

Dervishes a broken, only an idiot can argue otherwise.

To compare a few dervish skills to war skills.

Frenzy - take double damage and attack faster. (Requires intelligent usage)
Heart of Fury - Attack faster for free. (Requires spam usage)

Rush - IMS skill, cancels frenzy. (Requires intelligent usage)
Fleeting Stability - IMS, doesn't cancel HoF, Prevents KD. (Requires Spam usage)

Evicerate - Non Spammable deepwound and plus damage.
Wounding Strike - Spammable deepwound and plus damage.

Crippling Sweep - 5 energy 6 recharge cripple.
Hamstring - 15 enegy 15 recharge cripple.

I could continue to list more including the awful design of the avatar skills but its somewhat pointless.

And thats just the skills warriors have small energy pools, using frenzy alone is pretty taxing on the energy pool whereas dervs can spam spam all day long without problems. On top of this warriors are punished heavily for using skills incorrectly... bulls strike, dchop etc, dervishes get rewarded for spamming harder....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Selket

On the topic of Dervishes being OP, at least playing a Dervish is actually fun, since you use all your skills all the time. That's more active than pretty much anything else in the game at least in terms of damage. Warriors haven't been fun since primal rage/endurance was good.

I read the reasoning in this post and proceded to ignore all of your other posts...

Plutoman · Apr 24, 2011, 05:20 PM // 17:20

He has a point, most people consider feeling overpowered and not requiring thinking to be advantages. Fine enough in PvE. I played a bit of the dervish, and it is fun, not having to think, doing massive damage, etc. Fair change from my ele where most of my builds require focus.

The issue is, well, the game suffers when that delves into the aspect of PvP, where someone being overpowered leaves one of them feeling underpowered... and that's not a balanced situation, and the core of any PvP (in any game) is skill of player > class/skills of build. Skill of player includes all of the aspects of builds, knowing who you can face well, but a good player should always beat a bad or mediocre one. The issue found here (though I'm not the best judge because I don't PvP) is that a good warrior may not always be able to beat a mediocre dervish.

TheRakeman · Apr 24, 2011, 05:30 PM // 17:30

They say they wont do serious nerfs to the Dervish because they don't want to undo the months they spent making the Dervish better. But they have no problem completely undoing 6 years of trying to make the game more balanced. Makes sense.

The average Dervish bar is on par with a warrior bar made up of solely warrior elites. Hey, there's an idea: For every 2 ranks in Strength, you may have 1 additional elite skill equipped.

pinkeyflower · Apr 24, 2011, 05:37 PM // 17:37

For every kill you make with a dervish you gain one point towards the new Shitter rank. Now proud dervishes can proceed to display their fine skill. With the way things are I'm sure you'll acquire ranks very quickly.

Also, new effect. While playing as a dervish if you proceed to /fame or /zrank anyone your account is perma-banned.

UnChosen · Apr 24, 2011, 05:47 PM // 17:47

Buff Warriors / Nerf Dervishes after 3 years when GW3 comes out.

Groth · Apr 24, 2011, 06:08 PM // 18:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

*shrug*

Warriors have been the best melee class in the game since the game released, and no one else has ever really had much of a chance. If dervs are better than wars (of course, no derv can fill a hammer war's role, but ignoring that for a second), so be it; I want some evidence that they're actually OP-ed beyond "they're better than sword/axe now!" Oh no, some other class is actually not laughably bad, kill it with fire!

You can /faceroll adrenaline skills with even less of a drawback than energy skills, if you're so inclined; that doesn't mean that's a good way to play the class.

For the un-initiated bad player above: Lets assume i'm a terrible warrior which really isn't far off the mark to be honest. It doesn't take much work to be bad at it... Dervishes have to try to fail. Back to your blanket statement...
HAHAHAHA! faceroll warrior adrenal skills yeah thats safe alright. You sir are an idiot. Dervish adrenaline users -- have you seen balth avatar? once again no downsides... plenty of adrenaline infinitely maintainable extra armor plus burning spam... Warrior adrenaline user... (elevator music) FOR GREAT JUSTICE! apparently justice is on a tight schedule she only sticks around for 8 seconds and comes back around every 45...
Dervish spammable cripple, auto attack cripple, automatic condition loss, automatic healing...
Warrior"even less drawbacks" because its wonderful in pvp to faceroll between two adrenaline skills such as oh... Defy and Flail and either magically commit suicide, or find myself at half health moving 33 percent slower. Use decapitate but no big deal right as a lead attack and lose all adrenaline and all energy two pips of energy regen will have me able to do a mending touch / sight beyond sight or endure pain in no time flat... while waiting on justice to pay me a visit or while i'm rolling my face through my "safe" adrenaline skills locking out my res signet for 12 seconds to give myself a 100 hit point heal, or using healing signet and reducing my total armor by 40% effectively taking double damage while trying to heal the damage i have taken. It's okay though, I'll safely use sun and moon slash to hit one target twice for no additional damage and 8 adrenaline, while the dervish safely hits twin moon sweep hitting 3 targets twice, setting them on fire, and healing himself for up to 110 in one skill for 7 adrenaline.

Yeah, its not your fault that I may suck as a warrior... what is your fault is that you sit in ignorance waiting for someone to show you how to think a problem through.

Edison threw you out as a failed experiment... on your bin was written: "not too bright"

Groth · Apr 24, 2011, 06:12 PM // 18:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheRakeman

They say they wont do serious nerfs to the Dervish because they don't want to undo the months they spent making the Dervish better. But they have no problem completely undoing 6 years of trying to make the game more balanced. Makes sense.

The average Dervish bar is on par with a warrior bar made up of solely warrior elites. Hey, there's an idea: For every 2 ranks in Strength, you may have 1 additional elite skill equipped.

Sadly half of them are stances in PVP, so no real benefit unless for every rank in Strength we gain two extra legs to stand on and the ability to magically stand in the same place multiple times at once without cancelling lol.

pinkeyflower · Apr 24, 2011, 06:15 PM // 18:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Groth

I'll safely use sun and moon slash to hit one target twice for no additional damage and 8 adrenaline, while the dervish safely hits twin moon sweep hitting 3 targets twice, setting them on fire, and healing himself for up to 110 in one skill for 7 adrenaline.

...

Edison threw you out as a failed experiment... on your bin was written: "not too bright"

Twin moon sweep (PvP) will only heal for 48 health if the condition is met, but small issue for the "I can tank insane amounts of damage" dervish.

I laughed when I read your last statement.

chilly willy · Apr 24, 2011, 06:20 PM // 18:20

ive played war from the start and tried all the other classes and by far my favorite classes are rit and war with war being first for general solo with my ai team play. its a very easy class. target foe and smash the crap out of it. no making sure enchantments are up, making sure avatars are up, prepping or chaining skills for the most part you just run in and smash away. high armor and strength for a damage boost means you can piss off casters and keep people knocked down while the rest of your team does the real damage. simple.

i always thought dervishes should have been buffed more and i like where they are now. i can come up with some awesome builds if i need to use a derv hero now.

saying all that, the one thing i always wished the warrior had was something huge that no other class has similar to the ele and his massive energy pool. every class has some kind of passive energy management except for the warrior. warrior's endurance kind of fills this gap. what i think should be done is first off buff tactics somehow i have never ever seen a useful tactics skill to bring in pve that made any huge difference. but what i would like to see is a different use for strength. i think the armor penetration is nice but there should be more to it. like maybe add 10hp per rank of strength so like the ele has tons of energy the war could have loads of health. to me this isnt huge because at 14 strength that equates to 140 more health which isnt much if you think about it. a crappy war will still die just last 2-3 more seconds. and a good war wont be vastly more powerful he would just be able to withstand a spike but then die right after. i think more health would be cool because it would offer more rune adjustments. with an extra 140 health you can use a superior strength+sword for example and still be at the same health as before but be able to deal a little more damage at the same time. its an easy buff which doesn't really change anything. or you can have more attribute spreading so you can have nice values for spear+axe+strength instead of just strength+axe. which would allow for more diversity in your builds in pve and pvp.

wow i rambled. to be honest even if strength was buffed to offer some kind of base damage reduction in addition to armor penetration even if it was small that would be nice too. like maybe 1 point for every 2 ranks so at 14 you would have 7 base dmg reduction. not much its like a permanent shielding hands at 0 protection prayers pretty much but would allow the war to tank a little better. even passive energy/adrenaline management would be cool and not be too overpowered but offer more to the player. like ranks in strength allowing % faster adrenaline buildup or knockdowns granting energy or something.

pinkeyflower · Apr 24, 2011, 06:31 PM // 18:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by chilly willy

ive played war from the start and tried all the other classes and by far my favorite classes are rit and war with war being first for general solo with my ai team play. its a very easy class. target foe and smash the crap out of it. no making sure enchantments are up, making sure avatars are up, prepping or chaining skills for the most part you just run in and smash away. high armor and strength for a damage boost means you can piss off casters and keep people knocked down while the rest of your team does the real damage. simple.

i always thought dervishes should have been buffed more and i like where they are now. i can come up with some awesome builds if i need to use a derv hero now.

saying all that, the one thing i always wished the warrior had was something huge that no other class has similar to the ele and his massive energy pool. every class has some kind of passive energy management except for the warrior. warrior's endurance kind of fills this gap. what i think should be done is first off buff tactics somehow i have never ever seen a useful tactics skill to bring in pve that made any huge difference. but what i would like to see is a different use for strength. i think the armor penetration is nice but there should be more to it. like maybe add 10hp per rank of strength so like the ele has tons of energy the war could have loads of health. to me this isnt huge because at 14 strength that equates to 140 more health which isnt much if you think about it. a crappy war will still die just last 2-3 more seconds. and a good war wont be vastly more powerful he would just be able to withstand a spike but then die right after. i think more health would be cool because it would offer more rune adjustments. with an extra 140 health you can use a superior strength+sword for example and still be at the same health as before but be able to deal a little more damage at the same time. its an easy buff which doesn't really change anything. or you can have more attribute spreading so you can have nice values for spear+axe+strength instead of just strength+axe. which would allow for more diversity in your builds in pve and pvp.

wow i rambled. to be honest even if strength was buffed to offer some kind of base damage reduction in addition to armor penetration even if it was small that would be nice too. like maybe 1 point for every 2 ranks so at 14 you would have 7 base dmg reduction. not much its like a permanent shielding hands at 0 protection prayers pretty much but would allow the war to tank a little better. even passive energy/adrenaline management would be cool and not be too overpowered but offer more to the player. like ranks in strength allowing % faster adrenaline buildup or knockdowns granting energy or something.

Sorry but the discussion is in regards to PvP. If you are talking about PvP then from reading what you've written you must be a terrible warrior. "Target foe and smash the crap out of it", any human with a brain will just kite and relieve pressure. A warrior cannot just train one character it must allocate pressure accordingly because it cannot use skills willy-nilly. Also, they require smart play with penalties like double dmg through Frenzy and learning when to use skills to maximize pressure given.

It is not hard to spam enchantments and keep avatars up nor do you need to chain. The dervish is all about spamming. The answer to dervishes is not to buff warriors so that they are in line with dervishes but the other way round; you realize this is a troll thread, right?

PvE: you can bring anything and you will win because AI takes care of itself.

Marvel-Kid · Apr 24, 2011, 06:41 PM // 18:41

Example:
Warrior = 1,000 dmg to 1 target
Derv= 333 dmg to 3 targets

While it would be nice if they buffed up the warrior just a tad.... I don't think it's absolutely needed.

Want to kill a derv? Empathy + Blindness. Done, end of story.

-On top of that, if you face a guy IRL with a 7~ foot Scythe and you have a 3~ foot sword... you're screwed unless you know how to handle it.

Try cutting down wheat with a sword.... you get a few sliced. Do it with a scythe, you'll get a ton more. Do you see where I'm going?

It just isnt logical for a sword to hit 3 people at once.

Hexamin · Apr 24, 2011, 06:41 PM // 18:41

100 Blades + WW attack. Oh wait... D/W's can still do that... -_-

chilly willy · Apr 24, 2011, 06:43 PM // 18:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by pinkeyflower

Sorry but the discussion is in regards to PvP. If you are talking about PvP then from reading what you've written you must be a terrible warrior. "Target foe and smash the crap out of it", any human with a brain will just kite and relieve pressure. A warrior cannot just train one character it must allocate pressure accordingly because it cannot use skills willy-nilly. Also, they require smart play with penalties like double dmg through Frenzy and learning when to use skills to maximize pressure given.

It is not hard to spam enchantments and keep avatars up nor do you need to chain. The dervish is all about spamming. The answer to dervishes is not to buff warriors so that they are in line with dervishes but the other way round; you realize this is a troll thread, right?

PvE: you can bring anything and you will win because AI takes care of itself.

i was kind of referring to both pve and pvp. i do fine in pvp when i use my war. pve heroes do everything for the most part but in pvp its all you. i dont use my war in pvp much because i dont like shoehorning myself into a certain role and casters can be a little more self reliant if needed. and i know its not ahrd to upkeep stuff but i find it irritating soemtimes. i would rather be constantly doing damage then ahve to stop and get somethign back up. stances and skills are great for the war. you cna continue to attack while having some other benefits. also "smack the crap out of it" is a broad statement you dont know what im doing to the foe i could be keeping a monk knocked down or pissing off the monk in some other manner forcing him to heal himself instead of healing his buddies who my team is blasting.

also face it you know you would love extra hp on a war

its a buff that just offers more fun without being overpowered in anyway at all.

and by the way aren't all the whining threads on this forum troll threads?...

Cale Roughstar · Apr 24, 2011, 06:48 PM // 18:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Groth

A lot of lulzy things

/claps
You made me smile with everything you said in this thread. Thanks!

Dervishes are faceroll characters. Warriors are not. Even back in the days of Warrior's Endurance (which I fully admit, I LOVED), you only really facerolled those two skills, and you did have to be careful with Frenzy. You couldn't spam your Dash, because you didn't want to get locked in Frenzy. That is the easiest warrior has ever been, and it still requires more brainpower than an AoB derv. Plus, it doesnt have the conditions AND does less base DPS.

Primal Rage was more fun than a barrel of monkeys. Zipping about the map, you still had to be careful with the double damage, and your attack skills required skillful use in order to score kills. Again, less damage than a derv and no conditions.

I am just waiting for someone to theorycraft an Onslaught build, so we can see a maintainable IAS, IMS, + Increased adrenaline gain, that is a FLASH ENCHANTMENT.

Break these damn things so I can stop facerolling and have fun playing warrior again.

Lithril Ashwalker · Apr 24, 2011, 07:01 PM // 19:01

for all of the people complaining about my psots and quoting me(LOL) i was only saying random things at the top of my head that prove u can have an IMS and IAS at the same time. thats it....

all-in-all logic behind a sword hitting more than one foe same as the scythe i just cant see happening,m even samurai only got to like 2 foes, the blade curves on a scythe because it harvests wheat in bulks.... a sword is meant to take down one foe at a time.

not only that if warriors did have the ability to hit multiple foes with a sword wouldnt that be kind of OP in itself, Dervish cant use a shield along with their scythe yet warriors can and warriors have the most armor now right?

multiple foes + sword = 100b

TheRakeman · Apr 24, 2011, 07:32 PM // 19:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marvel-Kid

Example:
Warrior = 1,000 dmg to 1 target
Derv= 333 dmg to 3 targets

If you are comparing swords/axe to scythe, I imagine it would be more like:

Warrior = 500 dmg to 1 target
Derv = 500 dmg to 3 targets plus spammable cripple, deep wound, blind, interrupts, etc. There's no comparison.

Quote:

Want to kill a derv? Empathy + Blindness. Done, end of story.

As opposed to a warrior shrugging off Empathy + Blindness?

Quote:

-On top of that, if you face a guy IRL with a 7~ foot Scythe and you have a 3~ foot sword... you're screwed unless you know how to handle it.

If you face a guy IRL with the ability to strike you with lightning bolts, you are screwed no matter what piece of metal you happen to be holding. Guild Wars isn't exactly IRL... Plus, there is a reason why no (or practically no) armies historically employed scythes as an effective combat weapon. It isn't one.